Need you're vote on improving Tube and Pipe so please vote for it on the Idea Station here
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/inventor-ideastation/tube-and-pipe-overhaul/idi-p/5518269
but post any comments on the main forum here:
http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/inventor-general-discussion/tube-and-pipe-overhaul/td-p/5518448
Here is the original post:
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I’ve been using Inventor for the past 11 years or so but only in the last 2 I’ve started using Tube and Pipe on daily bases. I’ve reviewed almost every tutorial, video, blog, existing on the matter but still find there are a lot of bugs, and room for improvement so during the course of one week while doing my daily job I’ve decided to add all the little things that got in the way of being more productive. It took another week to get the images and animations and to prepare the document but I am sure that even for non Tube and Pipe users this will make sense and cast a vote.
I am not sure if it was better to
split all these ideas into separate posts or keep it as one. I think that some
of the requests have been mentioned before so I apologise for that but I
thought to keep it all together hopping to rather get a general overhaul of the
Tube and Pipe environment so please vote for it even if they seem duplicate
(add links to other posts so we can vote them there as well, please).
In no particular order here they
are:
1. If you don’t populate the route it can be really
hard to place fittings. It doesn’t snap to nodes. Need to increase the snap
influence area (or make the nodes bigger) so you can drop parts without populating
the routes because this affects performance especially on large assemblies
where we don’t populate until the very end. In the first part of the animation
I am trying to place while in route only (or an unpopulated route) and it fails
while with “populated” / ”display all objects” it’s really easy to drop
fittings. Glyph and node custom size value needs implementing (nodes, arrows,
etc), in T&P settings (template file) or even better in Inventor Settings
customizable per user. I’ve seen a lot of requests from users of FEA and other
modules as well for this.
3. While in route you can’t delete multiple work
features in Included Geometry, and you need to select and delete each one
individually. This is very time consuming, and we need to be able to use delete
on selected items.
4. When inserting a node into a route the newly
created segments should try and maintain (copy maybe) the original segment’s
constraints and dimensions. We only need to dimension the position of the newly
inserted node in regard to existing geometry. Fully constrained sketches go
crazy when inserting a single node, removing existing constraints and deleting
dimensions in the process as well.
8. Branches are an absolute must, tees or not. If
the user doesn’t specifies a tee family in the style library (need to add a tee
selection menu there) then pipes would intersect to simulate a welded
connection. Notches in the larger pipe diameter should be added automatically
if user settings “notch matching branches” in style selected, just like in the
branch fitting author dialog. I’ve never used a cross (too expensive, company
standard to avoid them) so I can’t advice on those but on tees if you have
three lines with end points coincident, two of them collinear and third
perpendicular (or 45 for Y) then that’s a tee connection. At least give us the
option to connect them and manually place the tee, right now it complains about
branches not being allowed, so you can’t connect nodes. My work around is to
dimension nodes at a distance but the sketch is not fully constrained and the route
segment can jump since more than one solution exists.
9. All routes need to be constrained and grounded
at T&P origin to stop them from flying around. What’s the reason for not
having it this way? Fittings inside the runs get connected around but the run
itself never gets constrained, or moved around, individual routes are
constrained by using include geometry. If needed the ground should be available
to manually remove. Currently I am manually constraining the Tube and Pipe
assembly and all the runs in it because if you move it by just a bit you’re
pulling your hair wondering why it’s skewed.
10. When placing from content center the fittings
default size selection should be the last used size, instead of defaulting to
first item in the list every time. This way when you start placing fittings you
only choose size first time, and the rest should follow. Different route?
Different size? Then change size first placed item and the rest should follow
again. I was going to suggest using the run size for each content center placed
fitting but each run can have multiple routes each with its own size.
11. Allow multiple T&P assemblies to exist and
to be editable in the same assembly. Each assembly can have only one Tube and
Pipe subassembly, editable at one time, if you need to edit an assembly with
multiple skids or multiple layouts (more than one T&P) assembly you can't
at the moment.
12. When equipment moves (defer update, or changed
outside main assembly) the routes go into “violation” mode where they turn pink,
and all components of the route have visibility off. At this point the route is
partially blocked for editing, you can delete constraints or segments but you
can’t start a route in a different point or most important can’t insert nodes. I insert nodes to change direction, orientation
and brake and fix routes but I need to do it before moving equipment predicting
what might go wrong, or use undo, redo to bounce back and forward predicting
how the change might affect the route. Deleting segments is not an option
because the end points of the segments might hold fittings that get deleted in
the process and need re-placing.
13. T&P equipment should change size
dynamically. Each Content Center fitting (pipe, elbows, tees, etc.) should get
the size from the previously item populated. If I drop a reducer in the line
the rest of the fittings and segments items should change automatically (Prompt
the user if he wants to change, the rest of the elements along the route). The
limitation here would be that it works with Content Center and iparts only, not
individual authored fittings, because they don’t have a family table to feed
from so they will not change as the rest (they can’t).
14. Stop routes from jumping while dragging nodes.
The only way to check if a route is fully constrained and movable segments is
to drag random nodes and see if they are moving. Sometimes more than one
solution error occurs when the route jumps on either side of a dimension. Use
negative/positive dimensions like with planes, or positive along origin
indicators and negative in opposite direction, or lock the dimension in place
and allow a flip option on a right click contextual menu. Sometimes a route is
fully constrained but because of more than one solution on these dimensions it
doesn’t report or change colour to fully constrained, or even worse, when
changing dimensions you end up with overlapping and intersecting segments which
goes into “Route Violation”.
15. Pressing the “Return” or “Return to Parent” (CTRL+ENTER
or CTRL+=) button will not exit the route environment, it will send you to 3D
Sketch forcing you to press “CTRL+ENTER” again to exit route into run
environment. Key shortcut for Finish Route is needed we don’t like to hunt for
buttons on hidden menus ( I keep mine as Minimize to Tabs to increase display
area). Sometimes when exiting the environment by using CTRL+ENTER twice doesn’t
restore the visibility of the route components to on, so you need to select
them all and turn them visible or edit the route and exit with the “finish
route” button on the ribbon.
16. Multiple selection working commands. We need to
be able to run regular commands on a selection set because right now you need
to select each and every component to do stuff like: change size, edit fitting connection (to
increase gap distance), make adaptive, etc.
17. Content Center pipes need re-authoring and ipart
template should be set to “Participate in Assembly and Drawing Sections”. I’ve
never wanted a pipe to run outside the section view but if I do I can turn off
section participant for those ones. This needs to come in Inventor as default,
not needing to republish standard CC libraries.
18. Tube and Pipe Content Center items don’t get the
properties specified in the Content Center family template. I get no part
number and no description all the time. Make it work like steel shapes, I am
not getting Description or Part number from Content Center Pipes and Spools.
19. Include Route Centrelines in the drawing should
show centreline for visible items only (use browser view to check which ones
are visible). It’s showing for the whole Runs ending up with a lot of lines for
which you need to turn visibility off, one by one.
20. Manually changed pipes and fittings should stay
that size when Style Size changes, because this changes everything including
your manual changed elements. If you decide to change style (size of the
routes) then a warning should pup-up asking for confirmation: “Sizes of some
elements were manually changed. Do you want to update all? YES/NO/CANCEL”
21. Changing size of multiple CC items has been
approved, see here: http://forums.autodesk.com/t5/inventor-ideastation/tube-and-pipe-multiple-selection-change-size/idi-p/5355567.
We need same ability for Pipes; if you select multiple pipes (in fact multiple
items altogether, fittings and pipes) you should be able to use change size to
modify them all as long as the families have same values for ND (or whatever
they main key parameter is). If the only way of programming this into Inventor
is by having same name for the key parameter on all T&P families (ND or
whatever Autodesk decides) then I am ready to modify all my custom families in
order to get this functionality going.
22. Last used Content Center family in Change Size
should be cached in memory; it takes forever for the family size menu to show
up again even if you just used it.
23. Can’t dynamically dimension using parameter
names. When entering dimensions for route segments you can only type numerical
value to start the dimension dialog, then you need to delete the value and you
can type a parameter name but the dimension is changed back to a fixed value
instead of being “parameter=dimension”. It seems to copy the value of the
parameter like “d22=30mm” instead assigning the parameter to the dimension like
“d22=vb”. I import parameters from xml for each style/size so while dimensioning
I use items like “vb” (valve ball), or gp (gap), or “e” (tee and elbow) to dimension distance between nodes based on
what goes into that node ,ball valve, tee, elbow, etc.
24. Constraints are not always visible for nodes. In
the next image the node is coincident with the blue segment (extension of
“fx:132”), and I can’t remove this constraint. ON/OFF switching of show
constraints doesn’t fix it. Notice that 3D/Move Rotate is missing in the
contextual menu because of the constraint being present but I can’t select it
and delete it.
25. Need to be able to change orientation plane for
multiple dimensions while in isometric view. Right now you dimension, right
click, Annotation Plane, Show All Part Work Planes, choose a different plane,
click to place dimension (“spacebar” is not always working, see below). We need
to be able to select multiple dimensions, and change orientation plane for all
at same time.
26. Need to be able to do Chain Dimension for
isometric views with option for Annotation Plane. Right now we need to manually
dimension each route segment and choose annotation (“spacebar not always
working, see below) plane which is very time-consuming.
27. Make “SPACEBAR” work all the time for quick
changing annotation plane while dimensioning Isometric drawings. Next I am
showing how it’s meant to work and that sometimes it’s not and you need to
manually specify work plane annotation. It’s not always working while selecting
segments; you need to play with selecting segment end points.
28. Exit without saving still saves changes. If you
use change size on pipes and then you close without saving it still saves the
file, even if you shut down inventor to clear its cache memory and start a new
session, the changes are persistent.
29. Decrease the length of the generated files and
folders for any design accelerator, tube and pipe, frame generator, FEA items.
It’s so easy to pass the 256 accepted characters in Microsoft Windows and you
end up with all sort of problems, like unable to access and recover parts.
The next one I can’t reproduce, I've been having it but I
can’t seem to be able to get it again, so if anyone has seen this and has a
case at hand please add it in the comments bellow:
30. While moving equipment
around some routes go into “Violation” mode and the only option is to CANCEL
the command which will undo your work, and to edit the route braking
constraints or deleting dimensions first. This is somehow related and really a
continuation of the first one, so even if the route goes into “violation” the operation
should be permitted to finalize and let the user change the route manually
later in order to fix it.
Edit 05 - 03 - 2015:
Items 31 to 34 added to the list, please vote on the idea station.
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31
- make the 3D orthogonal route tool from Tube and Pipe, generally
available in 3d sketches. Countless times I've created routes and used
them as skeletons for Frame Generator.
32 - If you select an existing component and
use place fitting to place it again "Change Fitting
Diameter" becomes inactive. You can get it active by using Change Size,
You don't need to actually change size just click ok in the window and "Change Fitting
Diameter" becomes available.
33
- Why isn't "Delete" key working on components and you need to right
click select Delete to remove fittings. This is standard in AIP except
T&P. And why can't you delete more than one component like standard AIP.
35 - Prevent fittings from changing orientation when doing operations like "Change Fitting Diameter". Chris Benner has reported this before.
36 - Fix default focus on
"Connect Fitting" to "OK" so I can press ENTER to
accept the way CANCEL revokes the command at any time just like in all the
other commands. I don't want to hunt with the mouse but press my ENTER or
ESCAPE thumb buttons on the mouse to finalize the command. Being a bit
picky here, but it's all about productivity. Please check other commands as
well, don't wait for us to report them one by one.
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Edit 11 - 03 - 2015:
Items 37 to 40 added to the list, please check end of post and vote on the idea station
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37 – Allow self intersecting routes
to populate. Give us an option to accept or cancel when the warning occurs. As
you can see, in the end the route will not self-intersect but I am forced to edit
dimensions several times in order to complete this (waste of time).
38 – “Change Fitting Diameter” on
components that are not iparts or CC items will restore the original fitting
and increase its size. If a part Diameter cannot be changed then ignore it and
don’t change it.
39 – Give us a “Match Properties”
function like the one in the drawing for “Copy Dimension Properties”. On the
same principle if you right click when the command is active you get a “Settings”
menu where you can choose what to copy: Material, Appearance, Orientation,
Diameter, Connection (distances). The Orientation (rotation) is going to be the
hardest but I suggest using connection 1 (they all have at least 1 connection)
as the rotation axis and Z axis as direction.
40 - STOP Changing orientation for fittings ! just like 35, different situation. I am only inserting a flange why do you feel I need the flow meter rotated 180 degrees?
46 - Routing from 3d points gives only one direction (arbitrary too). How can a point have a single routing direction? Give us the triad when starting routes from 3d points to choose direction. Use the work point inputs for the triad alignment. On any other points this is working just fine.
47 - When constraining routes to 3d points (included geometry) the route goes in to “Violation Mode” with the error “The route is not perpendicular to a circular edge”. I don’t care/need to have a circular edge to start a route; points are as good as any to start a route. This error makes no sense.
48 - Give us an Equal “=” constrain to lock similar pipe segments instead of dimensioning them. I work a lot with mirrored routes (deriving route would be too complicated) so an equal constraint would really help.
49 – Placing T&P authored ipart or illogic components is not working. This needs fixing and not make me use 3rd party paid add-ons. When you place an illogic component it asks you for the parameters to change but when it’s supposed to do the place it reverts to the “Select Fitting to Place” window dialog. When placing iparts is places the main file instead of asking you for the size and generating a file based on that. You need to start another Inventor session without loading T&P add-on, generate your files and then place them in the inventor session that had T&P loaded. (image can't be uploaded, this is from the idea station, hope it's not removed)
53 – Route construction lines should not be
visible in the drawing when selecting ”Include Route Centrelines”. I understand
why some might need them so give us another option to “Include Route
Construction Lines”.
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Edit 28 - 10 - 2015
40 - STOP Changing orientation for fittings ! just like 35, different situation. I am only inserting a flange why do you feel I need the flow meter rotated 180 degrees?
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Edit 18 - 03 - 2015:
Items 41 and 42 added to the list, please check end of post and vote on the idea station
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41
- STOP the pointer from jumping uncontrolled between two possible connections. I can
only hit escape and find other means of connecting the fitting.
42
– When using Change Size on pipe segments the screen doesn't refresh so you
need to pan, zoom or run a different command to get the screen to refresh and
show the changes.
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Edit 24 - 03 - 2015:
Item 43 to 48 added to the list
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43
– Because of item 4 “Fully constrained sketches go crazy when inserting a
single node” and to speed up quick designs we would need an
Auto-Dimension / Auto-Constraints option just like in regular sketch. End
routes if not connected and hanging up in the air they should be dimension to
any visible planes (included geometry) but if at least one end point is
connected then dimensions and constrains should be enough to create a fully
constrained sketch.
44 – When entering
angle on routes of type“Tubing with Bends” the dimension is not added to the route.
You need to manually dimension to get the angle to be persistent.
45
– When doing routes of type “Tubing with Bends” and you change direction to 90
degrees a perpendicular constraint should be added between consecutive pipe
segments (skip the bend and have them perpendicular to one another). Now you need to add it manually not like on regular routes where it's added automatically.
46 - Routing from 3d points gives only one direction (arbitrary too). How can a point have a single routing direction? Give us the triad when starting routes from 3d points to choose direction. Use the work point inputs for the triad alignment. On any other points this is working just fine.
47 - When constraining routes to 3d points (included geometry) the route goes in to “Violation Mode” with the error “The route is not perpendicular to a circular edge”. I don’t care/need to have a circular edge to start a route; points are as good as any to start a route. This error makes no sense.
48 - Give us an Equal “=” constrain to lock similar pipe segments instead of dimensioning them. I work a lot with mirrored routes (deriving route would be too complicated) so an equal constraint would really help.
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Edit 26 - 03 - 2015:
Item 49 added to the list
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49 – Placing T&P authored ipart or illogic components is not working. This needs fixing and not make me use 3rd party paid add-ons. When you place an illogic component it asks you for the parameters to change but when it’s supposed to do the place it reverts to the “Select Fitting to Place” window dialog. When placing iparts is places the main file instead of asking you for the size and generating a file based on that. You need to start another Inventor session without loading T&P add-on, generate your files and then place them in the inventor session that had T&P loaded. (image can't be uploaded, this is from the idea station, hope it's not removed)
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Edit 01 - 04 - 2015:
Items 50 and 51 added to the list
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50
– Sometimes when moving equipment around the fittings don’t move with them. You
need to edit each fitting connection and redefine the connection to get it to
update and move.
51
– When you edit a route some fittings change rotation and report wrong angle.
The original valve reports 0 degrees just like the new one I am placing but
they are obviously at different angles. The pipe is correctly aligned; I
have checked the origin planes and they match those on the new valve.
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Edit 09 - 04 - 2015:
Items 52, 53 and 54 added to the list
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52
– Route construction lines should be visible inside the route sketch only. As soon
as you exit the route they should be off.
54 – When you check out from Vault a
T&P project and you edit it, Inventor will sometimes replace/create pipes
but the old ones are still checked-out to you and then you need to find them
and manually run undo check out. I think this need to be done automatically
with each replace.
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Edit 17 - 04 - 2015
Items 55 to 58 added to the list
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55
- Allow assemblies to be authored as T&P fittings, further more on the
authoring info we should be allowed to copy or link authoring info from parts.
This way if I change size/replace parts in the assembly the authoring info
updates automatically.
56
- Allow change construction lines to normal and vice-versa on the fly just like
in any regular sketch. This will in fact change what gets populated and what
doesn’t just like now based on line type.
57
- Allow construction lines to be created freely as normal lines anywhere I need.
At this point you can only create them from existing nodes.
58
- Derived parts should get T&P authoring information from base component,
this way we can actually use iparts and shwrinkwraps. If you derive a component
manually then in the derive settings window we should get a check radio button
that will allow the authored info to be passed over to the child.
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Edit 05 - 05 - 2015
Items 59 and 60 added to the list
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59
– We need to be able to retrieve dimensions of the routes just like on any
normal parts. Furthermore we should be able to modify model geometry from those
retrieved dimension like on any regular part.
60
– Fix the sketches for bent segments. Sweep segments don’t have constrained and
dimensioned sketches so the Change Size on the pipe doesn't produce any results
until you manually constrain and dimension the pipe sketch. The time required
to do this makes it almost impossible to work with.
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Edit 26 - 05 - 2015
Items 61 added to the list
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61
– Remodel T&P fittings in Content Center, they have been brought over from
centuries ago and never got updated.
Some of the elbows have discontinued faces creating weird models and high
computing time when exporting to neutral format or sending other software like
showcase. Instead of the 3 revolve with gap you might do it 2 sweep not gaps.
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Edit 06 - 07 - 2015
Items 62 added to the list
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62
- If you have a lot of connected fittings and you want to place them all again
in a different point you need to place then one by one. The place fitting
command should work on grouped fittings asking you to constrain just the top
parent component of your selection to which the others are linked. This should
work similar to copy paste inside assembly, where we get automatic constraints
(connections).
Note:
you can use copy / paste (no right click menu just CTRL+C and CTRL+V) and even
thought the fittings are connected they don't update, move to new location once
you connect parent fitting.
This
is how it should work:
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Edit 08 - 07 - 2015
Items 63 added to the list
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63
– I am not even sure what this error is but can we have it fixed please.
Dimensions have confusing values until you actually click to place it. Most
of us don’t click if the preview is not showing the correct result.
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Edit 16 - 07 - 2015
Item 64 added to the list
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64
– This is more of a 3D Sketch problem but it needs fixing. On 2D sketch
you can right click a line towards the end and choose Delete Coincident
Constraint to release it. I would like to have the same option in 3D sketch so
I can disconnect a pipe segment and connect it somewhere else. Manually
removing constraints is not always working. See point 24 “Constraints are not always
visible for nodes”.
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Edit 07 - 08 - 2015
Items 65,66 added to the list
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65
– I think this is similar issue with 50 and maybe fixing one will solve the
other. Fittings don’t move with the equipment or the route. I am editing
the route and the flange doesn’t move. I need to use edit fitting orientation
to force update it (all I do is press Spacebar to change direction twice to get
it right again).
66
– Unions, coupling and connectors specified in the style can’t be reoriented.
The change fitting orientation is not available. If you use place fitting on
same element the edit fitting orientation becomes available.
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Edit 19 - 10 - 2015
Items 67,68 added to the list
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67 – Please use the
hose template supplied in Content Center. It is pointless for us to publish
hoses if you’re not going to use the CC model to generate hoses. Placing from content
center works fine but T&P creates new part and copies only some parameters
like ID, OD and iproperties of the original model. The gray hose it the T&P
generated file while the colored one was generated using place from content
center.
68 – Just like in the
case of tubing with bends the sketch of generated hoses needs dimensions and
constraints. I cannot change size of the hose independent of the style if I see
fit. In the animation you can see that I need to dimension and constrain the
sketch to make it update size.
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Edit 28 - 10 - 2015
Item 69 added to the list
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69 – Allow us to import TP style with missing CC families. If the family is
no longer in CC don’t skip the import, I
will modify the style and appoint a new family. I don’t want to recreate all the styles for hours but
rather choose a new family and be gone in minutes.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Edit 29 - 10 - 2015
Item 70 added to the list
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70 – Give us the option to move/restructure fittings in the browser. The
results are random and you need to drag other parts around your fitting to
restructure the browser pane. Adding them to a custom folder is arbitrary as
well; it seems that the group you try to move can be moved only if the first
fitting in the selection is movable. ?!?.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Edit 11 - 11 - 2015. Item 71 added to the list
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71 – Please turn hose 3D sketch visibility OFF by default. The route can be visible but the hose 3D sketch is visible as well and I can’t see why anyone would need that especially in cases like mine where I have clear tubing.
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Edit 12 - 11 - 2015. Item 72 added to the list
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72 – Allow all fittings to be used with Insert Fitting command because only some will permit insertion (Content Center only maybe?!?). I need to insert a standard fitting, and then place my fitting on top of that to get it to work; a lot of extra steps if you ask me.
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Edit 17 - 11 - 2015 Item 73 added to the list
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73 – Placing an already existing library
fitting (not CC) will trigger a “do you want to check it out of vault?”
question. What’s placing got to do with checking it out especially since the
fitting exists in the assembly.
Edit 19 - 02 - 2016 Item 74 added to the list
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74 – On consecutive inserted fittings while rotating a fitting the
ones that follow should only rotate IF the connection is of type flanged where
the bolt holes need to match. On connections like welded, clamped, joined, etc.
the fittings that follow should not rotate. However as mentioned we need to be
able to select multiple fittings and choose edit orientation. If it’s too difficult
to implement then only rotate the ones with similar connection orientation (vector
direction).
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